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susan: early on your latest book is an epic journey from slave to freedom. what makes their story particularly compelling to you. ilyon woo: i can't even begin to say what does not make it compelling for me i am obsessed with the story and have been for a really long time. i think what originally drew me to it was the phenomenal adventure story and their narrative, running 1000 miles to freedom which they published in 1860. it talks about this incredible escape they make. they are husband and wife enslaved in makem george at jaya -- georgia and they decide they are going to -- for freedom not with any underground railroad

which does not reach south where they are, not by hiding and traveling by night. but they go out in the full light of day, disguised as master and slave with william playing the role of the slave. that story grip me from the beginning. >> in their time how well were they? ilyon woo: they were quite well-known known actually there is a quotation from wendell phillips who is a celebrated abolitionist lecturer, he is called the golden tongued man and he predicted that future people, millions will read their story and know it with admiration and applause because many people across the united states knew their name at that time. because their escape was phenomenal but also because they chose to tell their story. susan: what do you think we get

from the history books? ilyon woo: that is an interesting question and it depends on which history books you are talking about. i would probably quote one of the great granddaughters on this one, she said whether people know the story or not has to do a lot with where they are coming from and the kind of stories they have access to. but it is certainly true that the crafts are not known like douglas or truman people who are known by a single name. i think that reason is complicated, it has a lot to do with which stories we decide as a nation, people in power in this nation have decided to tell. and remember over the years. it is also a difficult one for us nationally to remember because it has so many pieces to

it, because it does not simply end with them achieving their emancipation when they reach the north. lots of things continue to happen where they have to live in america. it is not one that is easy for us to embrace, >>'s so it needs a happy ending in other words? ilyon woo: it doesn't it has so many endings and that is what makes it so exciting and my point of view and so rich and worthy and deserving of our attention, our renewed attention today. susan: besides william and ellen at you mentioned frederick to who or some other important characters in your narrative? ilyon woo: there are a lot of people across the board from abolitionist lecturers, black activists, the president of the united states, who come in and out of the story. one thing, i have a writing partner i also work with, we actually used to be running partners. we would always keep each other

going and we were doing the same thing on the page, one thing she pointed out was it's like in an ordinary movie, not an ordinary movie i guess a mainstream hollywood movie that you might have seen over the last number of years, you would have henry clay or daniel webster. someone like frederick doug a set the center of the story. now these characters get walk-on roles and that is sort of how i like to see them. so many of them come in and out, there is douglas and william brown who are great lecturers and people who really show the crafts of telling the story and what it means to live a life in freedom in the north and overseas. there are the president of the united states and secretary of

state daniel webster who have to figure out how they are going to recapture the crafts, there are international celebrities who get to know the crafts abroad. lots of people who go in and out of the story and if you take a look at the book, the book jacket, and you undress the book and you read the jacket. you will see there are a lot of people on the inside of the pages, you can see that. but these are some of the many people who you will meet along the way. susan: so the story opens in 1848 make the point that this year is a real seminal one in not only american history but globally, what are the important things that were happening in this country in 1848, that makes this a real focal point of their ability to make the escape that they did? ilyon woo: well 1848 is one of

those crazy years were so many things are happening, worldwide you have democratic revolutions sweeping across europe and those revolutions are being celebrated in the united states and sheared and toasted in washington dc by people who are holding enslaved people in bondage themselves. meanwhile you have the year of -- falls, the american women's right conference, the year of a global pandemic with cholera sweeping around. you have got an information revolution, a transportation revolution, the trains and steamers at all kinds of technology are working as never before to bring news and people across the country. you've got the close of the mexican-american war in the mexican session which explodes the contours of the country, so

we have western migration, the gold rush. i mean it is a really intense and exciting time in united states history. manifest destiny is a catchphrase. that is why the craft escape, which fit so interestingly with this because they encompass all these revolutions that are at play and they make manifest a new destiny of their own. susan: approximately what was the population of the country at the time? ilyon woo: that is a really good question i don't have it at my fingertips but it was definitely exploding and changing and this is also a time where there were new immigrants coming to this country like never before, so even as the crafts ultimately leave the country and land in liverpool, that is one of those places where tons of impoverished people are getting on boats and coming over to the united states. irish immigrants following the potatoamine, chinese

immigrants are starting to mak it to. for the gold rush, and working on the railroads and mines and such. so our population is exploding and changing. at a dramatic rate. susan: do you know approximately how many enslaved persons were in the united states at the time? ilyon woo: that's another good question, i am not on top of the figures. susan: i wrote down, about 3 million. that is one of your historical figures referenced. we will use that number from your book. you also tell readers that we think about the fugitive slave law is something that came out of the compromise of 1850, but you remind your readers that george washington actually signed fugitive slave legislation so it had been enforced since the very founding of the country. what did that early legislation mean for enslaved people, what did it do to their lives? ilyon woo: both the fugitive

slave law, the 18th century fugitive slave law and a clause in the constitution itself, made it possible for, or legalized enslavers rights to go reaching over state lines and reclaim their enslaved quote unquote property, or the labor that was owed them at his is -- as it is expressed in the constitution. but there are many states especially in the north that were getting around these laws. it was hard to enforce. so actually george washington himself had a challenge with a judge who is the subject of a wonderful book called never caught by eric armstrong, he himself never was able to recapture luna. and enslavers or incensed by this so what's the use of having these protections for their property rights that they consider them, when somebody escapes let's say two and

abolitionist stronghold. legally you can do something but actually you can't. susan: so the crafts homeas macon georgia what is important to know about making an 18 yon o: macon was an urban cent, it is a transportation hub, right next to ledge bill which was then the state capitol atlanta. it was kind of a bustling, thriving place. the indian removal act in macon had dispossessed many native people of those lands and you can still see in the mountains where native people used to bury their dead's. those grounds were cut through with railroads and the person in charge, instead of supervising the construction of those railroads was ellen crafts own enslavers. there is a real irony there of

alan and william craft fleeing on the same line that the man she was forced to call master was in charge of building. in those tracks were laid by enslaved workers and those helped her get to freedom. susan: let's spend more time getting to know the protagonists starting with william. how old would he have been in 1848? ilyon woo: he was born in, let us see my math skills are challenging. he was 25 years old. susan: what was known about his life up until that point? where was he born, what were his early days like? ilyon woo: that was really interesting to discover because i did find out through his original enslavers records, and then ultimately through his own death records, that he was born in the town of lech phil and he was born to parents we knew and loved and he had siblings he grew up with.

he was enslaved by a man named mr. craft in the book, this man helped him get an education, help the poor a christian man, but as william pointed out this is a man who enjoys all these privileges and has this reputation but this is a person who essentially has gambling debts. leading to william's family being ripped apart. susan: tell me the story of william's family being ripped apart and sold at auction and how that affected him? ilyon woo: this is one of the emotional grips of the book william and allan's separation from their families. william from his parents and siblings and alan from her mother. so william's parents, he was one

of the younger children. they were laboring for mr. craft and he saw that they were getting old and past their prime and william's mother had already had all these children, william's father, they were both probably in their 40's. as the crafts remember it, he wanted to replenish his stock by trading in these older enslaved people for younger ones and that's the reason he gives william when he asks, because william was under 10 years old when this happens. and he asks mr. craft was it because they were losing their value? so william remembers his parents and seeing them taken off and sold to different enslavers. what happens then is william and his siblings are left and his brothers are sold and then he

and his one other brother and one younger sister are remaining. the older brother and william are apprenticed, william to become a cabinetmaker because he is smart and develops these skills. he will provide a return on his investment for his and slaver. what he doesn't know is that he and craft are having more financial trouble so this is what ends up resulting in both william and his sister being put on a mortgage, which i actually held in my hand. he had been mortgaged alongside church pews and other stuff, other physical property. they were listed there as if they are things. and what happens is the kotten

speculation takes a downturn for mr. craft, the children and their lives are put on the line and they are sold off. susan: and you described him watching his sister being led away in chains on a wagon. how this made him so angry and that anger coursed through him for the rest of his life. can you add any more color to this story? ilyon woo: yes it is a devastating moment. i highly recommend also returning to the original narrative where william recounts this, he feels this burning inside him, this fire inside of him. he can't even say goodbye to his sister and he is seeing her as she's being pulled away. she's already tried to beg to see if he could say goodbye to her for a last time, and he gets a no. he knows she is not going to be sold locally, she is going to be going far away and that is a

moment he will never forget and it leads to him thinking his own self emancipation and also being determined not to replicate this cycle of trauma within his own family. and not to have children who will be taken away from him in this way. susan: you said william was apprenticed to be in a cabinetmaker and this becomes an important part of the narrative because he seems to be able to earn his own income. how did that work? ilyon woo: this was technically not legal but it was a nice arrangement, william's enslavers was a young man and a businessman and what william did was because he had these skills in the shop, he made this arrangement where ira hamilton would pay a set fee for william services to the cabinetmaker and

then whatever william worked on top of that he made an arrangement with the cabinetmaker so he could earn his own wages. he had to work a full day and have all those wages go to his in slaver, but he could keep the other wages that he earned both at the cabinetmaker shop and a hotel. which i think is also key because hotels are places where people are going in and out and exchanging information and traveling. that's another place he could have ticked up information about how to move. susan: turning to alan, she was a few years younger than william, 17 or 18 years old. what is her lineage? susan: ellen was the daughter of an enslaved woman named maria. she had a really close relationship to this woman. they were both enslaved by a

biological father whose name was james smith. james smith originally had a house in georgia which is maybe 12 minutes away from macon. they ended up moving back to macon, into macon. but james smith had a legal vice in his household and they had a number of children. his wife eliza smith is so enraged by this child ellen and her resemblance to her father and her being mistaken for a child of the family that she wants to get rid of her. at the soonest opportunity when her own daughter turns 18 years old, she is given away as a wedding present to become the

property of allen's half-sister. susan: a so-called house slave of her own half-sister? ilyon woo: exactly susan: if she was standing in front of us today what would we see? ilyon woo: ellen craft? susan: yes. ilyon woo: short? how light complexion? what did she look like? i have a picture here and her older age i keep on my desk she was very fair. she had dark straight hair as you described, everybody talked about how lovely she was. both she and william were known to be good-looking people. and very charming and graceful. she would have been dressed, she

would have won a corset in her day as a house slave. this is something i learned, one of the things that is really exciting about this research is talking to other people who have different areas of expertise. i really wanted to bring the era alive with the foods and the smells and the costumes and all these things, i had a friend who was a real expert lynn bassett with these clothing details. she was able to let me know how a woman like ellen would have dressed and she would have had a corset, because back then, you know the expression a loose woman? that comes from women who did not wear corsets. if you're going to be a respectable person, that includes women who enslaved women who are working as house slaves in these households, you would be wearing a corset. a full skirt. and possibly a kerchief on her head, but she would have been wearing some close especially in her case, because her enslavers

did not want her to be mistaken as a member of the family. she would have been dressed in clothing that marked her as an enslaved woman. ilyon woo: william -- susan: william had a skill a cabinetmaker but ellen had her own skill as a seamstress how important was that? ilyon woo: that was critical for a number of reasons because one it was noted she was small. so william was the one who actually goes to the different shops in macon and buys a hat and buys a coat and he buys a vest and shoes, a jacket would be too hard to make in four days which was all the time they had. she made her own pants because pants are something that would not be able to fit, and even the other clothing items when she tries on the pants, i am sorry when she tries on her vest over the outfit. even william is looking at her

like i don't think this is going to work and he panics. there is a newspaper that recounts him recounting this. but she is a clothing expert and she knows that even though the vest is off she can layer her clothing in such a way that it will be all right. that knowledge as well as the sewing expertise both helped her essentially. susan: in 1848 when they make their escape how long have they been a couple? ilyon woo: in terms of their marriage, they had this slave marriage ceremony in 1846. so that was two years but they had fallen in love before that. they had fallen in love but ellen had not wanted to marry, not want to have a profound connection with another human being knowing that this person

in any family she created with him could be stolen from her at any time. so even though they fell in love earlier their relationship was delayed. they think originally they were going to try to run first and then marry later, but the escape routes proved to be so out of reach that they decide to reverse the order and put love first. susan: you said they put their plan together for the steering escape and for the steering escape in four days, what was the urgency? ilyon woo: while there is a clock that starts ticking. i guess i should back up for a moment to say that in order for them to even initiate this escape they had to get written passage from their enslavers giving them permission to move. so as an enslaved person you cannot travel without such a

pass and there are severe punishments for traveling without this written pass. the crafts were denied literacy so it is not like they could forge one of these passes on their own. and these passes, your chances of getting one of these passes were greatest if you were favored and around the holidays. that would be the time when you might be given a couple days off. both william and the crafts were favored by those who enslaved them and so ellen goes to her half-sister and slaver and gives an excuse, this was before christmas but she also gives an excuse that her aunt is ill. and eliza at first does not want to let her, even though it is the holidays it is a busy time at home. and ellen burst into tears and

at that point eliza gives her that permission. but both she and the cabinetmaker who have primed the paper for william give them just a few days. that gives it the urgency of them getting out of reach within that time. susan: explain the heart of their plan, how are they posing in what was their destination? ilyon woo: they were posing, ellen was posing as a wealthy white male and slaver. and she pulled this off with a subpar outfit. i'm going to quote my friend lynn bassett again, because the jacket was not custom fit and everything was big. but she had the performance skills to give the impression of being this man of class. and of course having an enslaved

person with her gave her that stature by comparison because she was a master and owned another human being, it gave her a higher status. william meanwhile was going to be, should i say william johnson's right hand man, ellen had added a crucial element to her disguise. which was disability, she would put her arm in a sling and wear glasses. not only to hide her expression but give her the appearance of being an invalid and somebody who needed to be served. so william would wait on her hand and foot to make sure she was ok and that bond would be built into their relationship. susan: i know i was reading this through 2023 eyes but as he

described their disguises it almost felt impossible for me to believe they pulled it off. because the arm sling the classes, that people were not questioning it along the way. how did they do it? ilyon woo: it's funny because there are people who thought she looked weird. they go on this steamer, th is one of the creepiest chapters because we have an eyewitness account from somebody who had this strange feeling about them. he noticed there is this young man who looked may be spanish and had a strange way of walking and he had his eye on them all along the way as they are steaming from savannah to charleston. he notices and somebody else notices with him and by the end that person says that person is either a woman or a genius. so they are not entirely

undetected but that was also pretty early in their journey. they learn fast what was expected of william and ellen as a master. and william as a slave. it really becomes all the more important because you asked before how they planned their journey, and they were supposed to go from macon to savannah by train and then savannah to charleston by steamer and it was supposed to be one shot from charleston all the way up to philadelphia there was supposed to be a steamboat going that way. but that doesn't happen and instead they have to take this really intense long journey with many more stops and they have to constantly improvise their roles. susan: what other aspect of their escape, you said william carried a gun? how is an enslaved man able to find a gun? ilyon woo: that is an excellent question, that was one of those moments when i was researching

when i it just took my breath away because they don't mention having any kind of gun in their own written narrative. in fact there is a lot they don't say in their story. these things will come up and really turn the story a whole new direction. where i found this was in the late 19th century legal case where william is under oath and this is about something entirely different and he's describing what happened. so in their narrative when they landed in philadelphia they get to a friendly's abolitionist boardinghouse. the way they recount this moment is almost comedic because they get there and they go upstairs and they say a prayer, they come back down and in the boardinghouse owner says -- actually when they come down -- they go up i should say and

ellen is disguised as a gentleman. they come down and she had a costume change in the boardinghouse housekeeper is completely bewildered and he says to william where is your master and he says this is my master and he says no where is your master. it was almost like a slapstick moment and then suddenly and finally the craft say this is who we are. actually what i found in a late newspaper account was something really different. in this account ellen goes upstairs and william pulls out a pistol and lays it on the table. he shows it to the housekeeper and he says he reveals who they are and basically declares his willingness to use this weapon which he has had with him presumably on his journey. where this weapon came from is a mystery really. definitely in macon, if they had

been caught with a weapon like this they would have lost their lives for sure. so we don't know. but it's amazing to know that they had that as a last resort on their journey. susan: your book has a map of their journey and it demonstrates that it is both arduous with so many changes of transportation and risks along the way, both physical and security risks. i am going to invite our viewers to read this because we only have 30 minutes left in our conversation ended as is lots of interesting detail. but when they got to philadelphia they were on free soil, why did they not just stay in philadelphia? ilyon woo: philadelphia was dangerous, they asked are we safe here? because as soon as they arrive the boarding housekeeper said the abolitionists are going to want to know about this and they bring in all these activists and

there's excitement about their story and their original plan is to go to canada. but alan is not physically well in their thinking of staying for a little bit but it's not safe because philadelphia is next door to the south. there are kidnappings there, there's still very much in danger. susan: so their next destination is what if not canada? ilyon woo: the activists say canada is really cold so you probably don't want to go there. they also want to send the crafts to boston, boston is known as a hotbed of raging abolitionists, it is a place where there is a strong black community and neighborhood where thsically can be protected. if you go there now, right next to t african meeting house can see alleyways where people go in

and out. it has been described as a honeycomb. it would be really hard to physically get them out of that neighborhood. susan: in philadelphia if they reveal themselves to the abolitionist community, did the word start spreading immediately? you say this was an age of communication, did the story spread far and wide at that point? ilyon woo: absolutely because this has been evidenced today, it's a great story. i have been following these different activists and you can hear the whispers, did you hear this? have you heard of this incredible feat? it's like nothing i've ever heard of. so people are writing back and forth, and news is n traveling across the country because they encounter this man who is a self a man dissipated man, a great storyteller and lecturer antislavery activist

and he writes a letter to william lloyd garrison telling him about this couple in that letter is published everywhere. we think about instantaneous news communication now, there was a feeling of that too because a telegraph had just been invented. all of a sudden we have news in one part of the country and its almost instantly in another part of the country which could be great if you want to share the news. not some great if you are people like the crafts and you have a mark on your back. susan: in the boston. of their life it's hard to not be struck by how brave they were. they made the decision to live their life publicly and not stay in hiding. would that have put them in constant danger at that time before the fugitive slave law? or was it fairly comfortable for a while? ilyon woo: i think there was a bit of a low in the way you get that sense of a low is the fact that if you look at the boston city directory for that time

william kraft has advertised his services. basically he's in the phone book. he has his address there and they also address his work in a paper which is widely disseminated. it seems they must've had some level of security there. in the neighborhood that they were in in this honeycomb neighborhood. but in fact of course they weren't. some of it also might, their personalities, they were incredibly brave people. they were quoted with saying here we are. susan: william wells brown is on the lecture circuit and invites them to join him. can you give our viewers a sense of what the speaker circuit looks like to society at that. in time? ilyon woo: so frederick douglas of course and heat were two of

the biggest speakers on the circuit. the lecture circuit was something that was very popular across a lot of different subject areas, you had people like emerson and daniel webster and others having these lectures. on a cold night it might be something you want to do, you are stuck indoors. it's kind of like entertainment on some level. also a way of learning, educating and being educated about various subject matters. and for the antislavery movement it was key. it was key to getting the word out about what slavery was actually like because there were all kinds of reports that slavers are sending that enslaved people are much better off than people in the north. this is something ellen crafts and slavers says and writes down. so having real life eyewitnesses

of human bondage and speaking to those experiences is something that really moves and activates crowds. at this time actually, sojourner truth, she is another speaker who is really just getting started. harriet tubman and 1848 was still enslaved. you didn't have women on the circuit the way you end up seeing ellen kraft. the crafts on top of joining this lecture circuit phenomenon were adding something very new. susan: and it also provided income for them because people pay to attend these? ilyon woo: they do not normally charge ticket sales but they did have a collection basket that went around. susan: so they were living a somewhat comfortable life and then everything changed with the

compromise of 1850 and specifically its provision about the new fugitive slave law. how did that change the circumstance for the crafts? ilyon woo: in every possible way. this was a devastating law it meant that the slavers were angry and determined that the north would participate actively in the return of fugitives and be good on their word. what this did was it enabled and slavers like ira taylor to either go them self send proxies. these proxies upon identifying enslaved people or people they are claiming to be enslaved people, like the crafts. they can have u.s. commissioners bypassing local state authorities and have u.s. commissioners make this judgment. these commissioners actually get paid twice as much if they find

these fugitives versus non-fugitives, and these people can also raise a posse and require the participation of the marshall. they have what was called octopus powers, they are completely muscled up and authorized to be able to claim people like the crafts or even people who might be mistaken for them. the crafts have no ability to testify against themselves, i am sorry against her and slavers. and in the case of the crafts they are so well known that there's not even a question of identification. so this is a cataclysmic moment in american history. when the south is saying to the north show us that you stand behind this law.

and it becomes even bigger for the crafts because ellen kraft and slaver robert wants to make this a test case for the nation. so when the crafts and slavers had not taken action before this even when they were traveling across the country, they were kind of embarrassing there and slavers in macon. even as they were living in boston and they could be identified as being there, the enslavers didn't do anything. this gets them fired up and determined to prove to all of america that the crafts could be recaptured and that slavery would therefore go on. susan: he hired somebody by the name of willis fused to captures the crafts. other than the community and -- how did the community in boston respond to the efforts he was making ako ilyon woo: willis

hughes traveled with a partner who worked in the shop with william and could identify him. willis hughes had experience with ellen kraft's family, it is said in one report that he had brutally and physically punished ellen's uncle to the point where the uncle was near death. so these men meant business when they came up. and of course they had all these rights, they had the fugitive slave act behind them and they could raise this posse. every good citizen or everyone they called upon in boston it would be required by the terms of this law to help them. so i think they probably think this is not going to be too bad, they arrive at their hotel. they can find william ri away, they know the crafts are a 20 minute walk away. but they encounter resistance.

they encounter it on many levels. first with the legal authorities who they are going to come that takes its own comical term. and then with ordinary citizens of boston down to the newsboys, and i'm sorry not newsboys street boys who are said to be throwing rocks and expletives at them. susan: he said ellen's former and slaver who was a physician, he was also a unionist. this was an important case for him to help preserve the union and enforce the fugitive slave law. why ultimately did it involve secretary of state daniel webster and the president of the united states? ilyon woo: i think you do have to read the story because there are so many plot twists that are really beyond believing, but it has become a cat and mouse game because the crafts -- they stand

up and a lot of people stand up with them. and then they dive down and they are zooming back and forth to different hiding places in the macon jailer and his partner also trying to chase them, meanwhile they themselves are getting harassed because one of the techniques that the kraft activist friends take on is that they tried to keep these guys busy. so these guys are in frustration, then they get charged for smoking in the streets or carrying a gun or ridiculous things like running the tolls. there's all this craziness going back and forth in a level of frustration building up in the stakes are so high that collins in extreme frustration turns to the president himself and says you have to do something.

susan: what was your assessment as a historian and writer of daniel webster's role in all of this? ilyon woo: daniel webster is an interesting character. one of the ones i can't say i enjoyed getting to know in this process, he is a difficult person to know. but he's somebody who is known for his powerful and stirring beautiful words about liberty. he was a leader through so many different kinds of compromises in our nation. he was able to work across party lines, but in the end he was secretary of state. he is in the senate, he does not actually get to vote for the fugitive slave act, but he does speak for it.

he becomes the voice of the north that changes the tide and as one historian has put it when it daniel webster gets up to say that the north has to support the south on the fugitive slave act and the compromise must be passed, that is the point in which civil war is averted for the time being. so this is a man who embodies so many different contradictions personally as well and i go into that in the book. there's actually scandalous things that he experiences personally, he is balancing all of this within his own life. and then he's trying to create this balance for the nation. he ends up a secretary of state being in charge of really having the crafts captured and being returned back into bondage and he's ready to do this.

susan: so it becomes too dangerous for the crafts to stay in boston any longer in their next stop through canada is england. what kind of life or the able to create for themselves in england? ilyon woo: england was an interesting step to follow through with this book, once they land their there physically not in the same kind of risk. then there comes the question how are they going to live their life with freedom? i started to see them evolve as their own independent characters and not always together. they are not always a team, william has of romance chapter where he is going off to see edinburgh and all these amazing sites and rallying crowds. there is that. there is lecture circuit they go on which takes on a whole new

dimension in england. but then there is the longer-lasting desire to have a free family and to have an education and that requires them settling down. so they do that. but it is a whirlwind journey. susan: it was a lifelong goal for each of them to have an education, how did they finally get one? ilyon woo: they have an opportunity to learn and study in an industrial agricultural and educational cooperative under the auspices of lady byron and also her daughter ada lovelace who is known now as the world's first computer programmer. they have this incredible estate where they are educating mostly children, and the crafts go there and they teach their skills and they get to sit down and learn. and learn to read and write.

they had some up until this time but this is their first dedicated time and you can see a letter that ellen kraft writes a couple months after their arrival here and in her letters you can see her artistry in her hand. they are beautiful and she appends them exquisitely, they write this letter back to america. you can see the pride in the formation of these letters which are really moving for me to hold as a record of their movement in time. ellen's hand moving across the page in time for us to see today. susan: so they had no opportunity to return to the united states as long as slavery was legal. once the war was over what were their decisions about where they wanted to live and why? ilyon woo: that's the thing about the crafts, again and again with all these different endings they could have stayed in england.

and lived comfortably there. they could have come back to the united states, as they decide to do. and settle in boston. which would have been an easier place for them to be. instead they make another difficult choice of going back to georgia, originally to south carolina to start an educational and farming cooperative of their own. they encounter trouble there, we are looking at late 19th century america and after the civil war it's not like there is happily ever after in the south. they have people who are really angry and don't want formally -- formerly enslaved people owning property in voting and doing all sorts of things. the crafts did that however, they built their school and when the night riders came to burn it down they built another one. on and on again and again, they were pursuing their own version

of the american dream. susan: one aspect of this story and i think it was during their british ears, that i think we haven't told his ellen was able to reunite with her formerly enslaved mother. how did that happen? ilyon woo: that's again where you have all these networks reaching and stretching across time and space. ellen's husband william was in africa at this time so this is a whole another chapter. but she learns where her mother is and she can't, even after the emancipation proclamation has been declared, she can't get to her mother behind enemy lines, making is really buried as one of the last confederate bastion standing. but she knows her mother is there. she activates a whole network of people to be able to find her mother who turns out to be living not very far from where

ellen herself was living on mulberry street in macon georgia. this union general has ellen's mother maria brought to her he says your daughter is looking for you are you willing to go? she says absolutely and there is this incredible moment where she is at the railroad station and this is the same line if not the exact same place as the one ellen and william took themselves out of bondage. and a journalist describes thousands of people were gathered there to see maria off knowing this mother was going to be reunited with her child again. that to me was one of those moments i will never forget reading. susan: the crafts published

their own book in the 1870's or so ilyon woo: 1860 susan: how was it received? ilyon woo: it was received well enough to have another printing but it was almost like they published too late. the narrative that had come out in the 40's and 50's, harriet beecher stowe had written a story that sold really well in a tangential connection, brown had written a novel that took on parts of their story, by 1860 we were so close to civil war and they did not have this sort of best-selling runaway success that william brown had or douglas many years earlier. susan: if a reader today were to pick it up, is it accessible to contemporary readers? ilyon woo: it is what excited me

and drew me into the story myself. it is definitely very readable. susan: we have about four mites left and to wrap this up i found a sentence or two you wrote, i would like to have you ta about a little more. you write the absence of a happy ending might partly explain why e crafts are not better known, their story eludes easy celebration and resists closure yet it is precisely this complexity that remains the source of their enduring power and why there story needs to be studied and celebrated. what were you thinking as you wrote those words? ilyon woo: i was thinking how much we are in a unique position today to be able to embrace all the complicit -- complexities and all the ambiguity that were so hard to discuss in those times. and they remain difficult today. we are living in a time of a lot

of dissension and tension. we're living in a time where people are trying to tell different kinds of american stories and i think what the crafts story does for us is it gives us an opportunity to see the simultaneous trends in american history coming together through them. so we have the declaration of independence, we've got those notes being sung anew. by black activists for example after the passage of the fugitive slave act saying these words should apply to us too. we've got them returning to american history in ways that rhyme very much with protest we are seeing today. for us as a nation for us to be able to hold the simultaneity of all these different things in our culture, the bad, the

terrible history that we have with slavery, but also the heroism with people like william craft and all those that studied beside him we can have a fuller picture today of america and embrace it through their story i think as never before. and maybe that's a way of adding a new chapter to this unfinished story that they bring to us. susan: that's the story of william and ellen it craft the book title master slave husband and wife in epic journey from slavery to freedom thank you so much for spending an hour with c-span. ilyon woo: thank you so much for having me today.

>> mr. speaker, i know the whole house will join me in congratulating john sweeney on becoming s.m.p. leader. i look forward to